Under what conditions can valid WR attempts be made?
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
In the discussion "Relationship and referencing between World Record Guidelines and IUF Rulebook", some issues were mentioned that really didn't belong there.
The relevant comments are copied below, and the discussion can proceed here.
Comment
Comment by Klaas Bil 16-11-2018
The WRG state in 1.4 NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS:
"A world record can be attempted as many times as necessary."
Is it no problem to accept a best result from an "unlimited" number of record attempts, contrary to competitions where the number of attempts is limited? E.g. track race competition usually allows one attempt, IUF slalom two attempts, high and long jump three attempts per height). I'm asking because in competition, you need to ride a bit conservative in order to avoid failure. If an unlimited number of attempts is allowed, you could take more risk than in competition and thus hit a better result in between "a lot of" failures.
Related to this, I remember that the current world record for 4 x 100m (which is now still on the "additional" list) was set immediately after the competition round in ECU 2017. I also remember that some people complained that this should not be a valid record, because it was set outside competition. In the current WRG, there is no basis for this complaint.
Do we accept records from training? (Provided of course, that the measurement is up to standard.) From the WRG it seems that we do - are we happy about that?
Do we accept records that were officially timed during competition, but in which the rider is later DQ'd for a reason that does not make his ride invalid in itself?
Again, from the WRG it seems that we do accept that.
Such a case may seem far-fetched, but we had this situation in our Dutch nationals a few years ago. A rider complained to have been hindered and was allowed to raced again. Later, after close inspection of video evidence, it was decided that the rider was not hindered in the first race, and the result of the second race did therefore not count for the competition. But in itself the second race went OK, it was officially timed and would have been a national record if it had been valid. We dismissed it as a national record because (in hindsight) it was not set during official competition.
Comment by Mirjam Lips 16-11-2018
Is it no problem to accept a best result from an "unlimited" number of record attempts?
There are several records apart from the 4x100 relay that were done right after the competition. We do that often in Slalom that right after the finals the winner in female and male gets two additional attempts to break the world record. For sure this is only done by riders who have the potential to break it (and I think it's in every riders discretion if he/she is capable). Both records in Slalom were done like this and I also know from long and high jump that attempts were already made after competitions).
I don't consider this as a problem and furthermore I don't think that one rider will try 5 times to break a record. If he/she doesn't after two attempts he/she will with the most likelihood also not do it in the other three attemps. I take again the example from IUF slalom. 99% of the slalom riders who have the potential to break the record do not have appropriate timing system themselves and they "take the chance" to ride under these conditions also right after a competition.
Another example: I attempted 24h record two years ago and broke it. I attempted it again this year but had to stop after 10hours because of my knee. I will attempt it again next year. There is no part that says that I'm not allowed to do that.
Do we accept records from training?
I don't like that idea at all and I also think we never had the situation before. I don't know any other sport that does this. Probably Usain Bolt runs much faster in training than he does in competitions. That's normal - you don't have pressure and don't ride conservative at all. I'm also much faster in training than at competitions in certain disciplines and I think you cannot compare training and competition atmospheres.
Do we accept records that were officially timed during competition, but in which the rider is later DQ'd for a reason that does not make his ride invalid in itself?
This sounds very complicated but I guess we shouldn't do that. DQ is DQ.
Comment by Klaas Bil 16-11-2018
1. (Unlimited number of attempts)
OK, I would agree that an attempt immediately after competition is valid.
But I also questioned doing a lot of consecutive tries, like ten attempts on one day or so. This would only work for short disciplines anyway, like a sprint, slalom or jump. Our current guidelines allow it, but I tend to think that it is not OK.
If someone re-attempts to break a record (like the 24 hour record in your case) after a year, that is totally fine with me. Doesn't matter if it's their own or not.
2. (From training)
OK.
If others think the same, we should think of somehow excluding this in the rules.
3. (DQ'ed rider). This may need some more thought.
If someone is DQ'ed (as in my example) that has meaning for the competition. But not necessarily for a record attempt.
If someone is DQ'ed for a false start, or getting outside of a lane, or e.g. in highjump over a bar for not crossing the 3m line after the jump, then the record attempt in itself is not good. That of course should not count as a record.
But if the ride (or jump, whatever) is good in itself, what is the fundamental difference between my example, and someone riding/jumping immediately after a competition like in your slalom example, or Mike Taylor in his highjump on platform world record attempt in Ansan, also after competition? Why not allow my example, but allow the other two?
Comment by Erik De Vleeschouwer 16-11-2018
1/ Maybe we can solve the problem by defining the conditions under which a record attempt is valid. It seems reasonable to me that for a WR attempt there are no more trials than there are in a regular competition. In this respect the Slalom and 4x100m records are correct. For jumps 3 additional attempts should be allowed on WR hight/distance, but not more.
I do not like the idea to allow an unlimited number of consecutive trials.
For example 30m wheel walk. This is an all or nothing discipline where usually more or less only half of the starters are finishing. If you should give 10 consecutive trials to the top riders there is a good chance that the WR will no longer be in line with any result that is possible in normal competitions.
2/ Records from training. No option for me. We cannot expect officials to attend a training for a record attempt.
3/ To avoid creepy situations like in the Dutch nationals I propose that we should claim that a separate WR attempt should be announced as such. In Holland is was just a re-race that was overruled afterwards, so DQ and no possibility for record validation.
If we agree on all of this it should be implemented in the Rulebook, possibly as a separate chapter World Records.
Comment by Klaas Bil 16-11-2018
(Number of attempts)
Sounds good to me. For a WR attempt(s) immediately after competition, you get the number of attempts as in regular competition. For jumps, that means 12 in total, and 3 per height/distance.
Note that (if I remember correctly) Mike Taylor in Ansan tried 148.5 cm after competition, as a specific WR attempt. He then went on to try 150 cm, and was given three new attempts (but no more) at that height by someone present as IUF representative. He failed all three and that was the end of his WR attempts on that occasion.
(Records from training)
I borrow from Erik’s comment on the third point. If we require that any WR attempt is announced as such, we automatically exclude training results. Sounds good to me.
(DQ'ed rider)
I agree: such a situation is resolved (and does not count as a record) by requiring that any WR attempt must be announced beforehand.
I don't think we need any of this in the IUF (competition) Rulebook. It is sufficient if the WRG has these rules.
Comment by Klaas Bil 16-11-2018
(Number of attempts, additional thought)
Allowing only the number of attempts as in regular competition, is in contradiction with 1.4 NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS, which explicitly allows an unlimited number of attempts. Does anyone of the experienced Committee members know why this was (is) allowed?
Even if a WR attempt does not immediately follow competition but is specifically set up as a (standalone) WR attempt, I think it would be good to allow only the number of attempts as in regular competition.
This raises the question however, how long one has to wait until doing a new WR attempt. If someone does that 5 minutes later and gets that number of attempts again, he effectively still has unlimited attempts. Must we decide for a minimum waiting time? Or am I overthinking this?
Comment by Mirjam Lips 17-11-2018
I agree with Erik’s points.
If we get two more attempts for a slalom record right after the competition, normally all the equipment is teared down and there is no possibility of doing two more attempts five minutes later. You normally then wait until the next slalom competition.
For me it's fine that if the attempt itself is announced as a WR attempt also after a DQ that we should count it. I probably misunderstood that point before Klaas. But I see that there is not much difference between point 1 and 3.
Comment by Jan Vocke 21-11-2018
1. (Number of attempts)
I like the idea of only allowing the number of tries that would be allowed in regular competition for additional WR attempts. Like Erik, I do not like the idea to allow an unlimited number of consecutive trials, as it is right now.
2. (Records from training)
I like the idea to require that any WR attempt outside a normal competition is announced as such.
In my opinion we do not necessarily have to exclude WR attempts in training. In my opinion, these attempts would only have to be announced far enough in advance and all other conditions would have to be fulfilled (number of attempts, required equipment, measurement of the track etc.).
3. (DQ'ed rider)
I think in Klaas’s example the additional race was meant as a regular race in competition. As a race permitted and executed according to the competition rules - in this case I would be against the duty of announcing a record attempt in advance.
I think it would actually be more logical to recognise a record set in such a race, even if the performance for the competition itself is subsequently declared invalid.
Comment
For jumps WR attempts I should add that the WR attempt has to start at WR height/distance.
Jumps at lower height/distance are allowed, as a warming-up and as much as desired, but the real WR attempt should start at WR height, and can go on as long as the height/distance is passed within 3 attempts, limited to a total of 12 attempts.
Agree with Jan about records from training, but in that case it's not a training but a separately organized WR attempt (out of competition).
Comment
I'm not sure if I should read your comment as
"as soon as the rider tries the current WR height/distance, this counts as the start of the attempt".
We must prevent the (unlikely) situation that a rider breaks the WR in the warming-up, then fails to break it in the actual attempt, and then still claims it because he actually achieved it (be it in warming-up). Because this would violate the rule that the number of attempts is the same as in competition. Therefore, we need to make sure that our rules prevent this.
One way to do it is to explicitly state in the rules "As soon as the rider tries the current WR height-distance or more, this counts as the start of the attempt."
Another way would be to make a rule that warming-up may be at any height/distance (including at and above the current WR). But a record set during warming-up doesn't count, and so the start of the actual attempt must be announced beforehand by the rider to the witnesses/judges.
I think I prefer the second way, i.e. to allow unlimited warming-up.
In practice, it won't make much of a difference. If someone has set up everything for a WR attempt, he would be crazy to try and go over the WR in warming-up.
Comment
@Erik: Okay, ein wirklicher Versuch aus dem Training heraus ist es dann natürlich nicht mehr - aber er könnte z.B. dann stattfinden, wenn normalerwiese das Training stattfindet - so war es gemeint ;)
Concerning high jump and long jump I am not sure which of the two variants I would prefer. In any case, I would agree that we should include such a rule.
Comment
Excuse the German phrase.
@Erik: Okay, it isn't a real attempt out of the training - but it could take place e.g. when the training takes place normally - that was the intention ;)
Comment
I think we're almost ready for a proposal (from me). One of the things that we would change is the unlimited number of attempts that is currently in the WRG. No-one has answered "Does anyone of the experienced Committee members know why this was (is) allowed?
Comment
Klaas, this is only a guess, but I believe the idea is that by limiting the number of attempts, we are decreasing the chance of the best possible record. The idea is that if you allow unlimited attempts, then won't the world record likely be a better performance, and thus be a more "true" record.
This is not my personal opinion, just a guess at past intentions.
Comment
Maybe this has been the intention at the time.
I'm not in favour of this. Essentially what this does is removing the element of luck, at least in short-duration attempts. It reduces the World Record to a lucky shot in an endless series of attempts.
For some disciplines, this is hardly an issue. No one is going to do a series of marathon record attempts.
But for some others like wheelwalk or one-foot, and to a lesser extent IUF slalom, there is a significant element of luck involved. In general, having the same limit for the number of attempts as in competition will make a rider take about the amount of risk as in competition. This makes competition records and stand-alone records more comparable, which in my opinion is a good thing.
Comment
I agree with Klaas.
Comment
Number of attempts
I think we need a text under 1.4 NUMBER OF ATTEMPTS along the lines of (italic):
For any discipline that is governed by the IUF Rulebook, a rider has the same number of attempts as specified by the Rulebook. For races this would normally be once (but twice for IUF slalom, slow races etc). For jumps the number in the current Rulebook (2017) is three attempts per height/distance, and twelve attempts overall.
This maximum number of attempts is allowed once per day (date), with the exception of a record attempt immediately after competition (i.e. within minutes) using the equipment and officials already in place, in which case the attempt counter is reset.
The (first) attempt has to be clearly announced by the rider, so that there is no misunderstanding whether the ride was part of warming-up or a real attempt.
I don't think there is a need to state a maximum number of attempts for time trials.
Records from training
I think we don't need a special rule for this. As long as all the usual requirements are satisfied, a WR is possible. It would also be difficult to define training as opposed to a WR attempt.
DQ'd rider
I want to propose this text in italic:
If in a competition a rider would be DQ'd for a reason that is not because of the riding or jumping itself, this does not invalidate the result for a World Record.
If in a competition a rider would be DQ'd (for whatever reason), he may still attempt a World Record immediately after competition.
And I think this text should go under 1.3 ATTEMPTING AN IUF WORLD RECORD. This section is also subject to modification by another pending proposal.
I will soon create a proposal as per the above, unless your responses indicate otherwise.
Comment
I think that time trials should perhaps also be limited to one attempt a day.
Comment
The text "This maximum number of attempts is allowed once per day (date), with the exception of a record attempt immediately after competition (i.e. within minutes) using the equipment and officials already in place, in which case the attempt counter is reset.", limits additional attempts on a day with an official competition to attempts immediately after that official competition.
I think we should formulate it in such a way that, in principle, in addition to official competitions, one additional record attempt per day with the same number of attempts as specified by the Rulebook is allowed.
I'm fine with also limiting time trials to one attempt a day.
I'm not sure if it really makes sense to separate 1.3 and 1.4. Somehow for me things belong together very strongly. The topic DQ'd rider, I think, has something to do with the number of attempts and generally the number of attempts has something to do with how a record can be attempted.
Comment
OK, there is no harm in limiting time trials to once per day. The benefit is that it streamlines the requirements, as everything is then once per day without exception for time trials.
I agree that "within minutes" is not very exact. "On the same day" is exact, and indeed has the meaning I intended.
I'll think about combining 1.3 and 1.4.
Comment
After considering to merge 1.3 and 1.4, I still think it is better to have a separate section 1.4 about the number of attempts. This is a rather long text about a 'distinct' subject.
I agree that there is a relation with how a record can be attempted. This is expressed by 1.4 directly following 1.3.