Contacting IUF prior to an attempt
This discussion has an associated proposal. View Proposal Details here.Comments about this discussion:
Started
There are many statements in the WRG that potential record holders must contact IUF prior to their attempt. I've tried to list them all, with section numbers:
1.3: It is recommended that you contact the IUF at least 4 weeks in advance of a record attempt.
1.6: This [asking IUF to consider adding a new record] must be done at least 8 weeks in advance of your attempt.
3.1.2: The IUF must be satisfied that the [time measurement] system is of a suitable accuracy, and should be approved by the IUF prior to a record attempt.
4.1.1: If in doubt [about course measurement accuracy], approval should be sought from the IUF prior to an attempt.
4.1.2: If in doubt [about time measurement accuracy], approval should be sought from the IUF prior to an attempt.
5.1.2: If in doubt [about time measurement accuracy], approval should be sought from the IUF prior to an attempt.
Except for the first occurrence, all of them are stated as a requirement. I think this is not needed. We could deal with such issues after a record attempt.
It may then occur of course that we are not satisfied, and that the record cannot be granted. Prior consultation might have prevented such a mishap.
Therefore, it's probably good to encourage prior consultation, but not require it.
The third sentence (the one in 3.1.2) has incorrect grammar.
Comment
I agree that it is not necessary to contact IUF if you pretty well know what you're doing.
However, for riders who are trying to break a record for the first time and who have no idea about what is required it could be good if they contact IUF first to check what is needed. Therefore I think it's a good idea to say: It's recommended to...
Comment
I totally agree with you Klaas and Mirjam.
I would also recommend to contact the IUF in advance to avoid that possibly necessary things are not done and a record can therefore not be recognized.
But if someone knows what he has to fulfil or can live with the risk that some requirement is not fulfilled and the record is rejected, then nobody should be forced to contact the IUF in advance. After all, the requirement to contact the IUF in advance would also mean that we would have to consistently reject all records for which the IUF has not been informed in advance - and I don't think that this is a good solution.
As long as it is possible to check afterwards that the rules have been complied with and that all requirements have been fulfilled, this should be sufficient to recognise a record.
Comment
If someone plans to break a record in IUF-sanctioned competition (such as Unicon, but some others as well), I think there is no need at all to contact IUF beforehand. The organisation will ensure that everything is set up and recorded properly.
For 1.3, this would mean that the current text
It is recommended that you contact the IUF at least 4 weeks in advance of a record attempt.
could be replaced by something like
If you plan to set or break a World Record outside of IUF-sanctioned competition, it is recommended that you contact the IUF at least 4 weeks prior to the planned attempt.
Comment
The issue with 1.3 will be dealt with in Discussion #18 "Retrospective World Records", and a proposal following from it. (That discussion has become a bit wider than the title suggests.)
Section 1.6 is discussed in Discussion #19 "New IUF World Record categories". This section will probably be deleted completely or heavily modified, and the phrase about 8 weeks in advance will then most likely disappear anyway.
For the remaining four sections (1.3.2, 4.1.1, 4.1.2 and 5.1.2) I will create a proposal soon.
Comment
In another discussion we talked about the fact that all records outside of official competitions have to be announced as such. (Discussion: Under what conditions can valid WR attempts be made?).
Regarding records in training I had written there:
"I like the idea to require that any WR attempt outside a normal competition is announced as such.
In my opinion we do not necessarily have to exclude WR attempts in training. In my opinion, these attempts would only have to be announced far enough in advance and all other conditions would have to be fulfilled (number of attempts, required equipment, measurement of the track etc.)."
Just now it strikes me that we have never talked about how far in advance record attempts must be announced which are performed outside an official event (or immediately after that).
I am of the opinion that it should not be necessary to inform the IUF in advance and a recommendation is sufficient for all record attempts within (or immediately following) an official competition.
At record attempts which take place without an official competition - e.g. in training - I think it would be good to have the duty to inform the IUF in advance. Just because there are no official judges or other officials and the possibility should exist that an official representative is present at the attempt. Competitions are announced anyway and everyone is free to visit them, becase they are public. With dedicated record attempts this possibility would not exist if they were not officially announced beforehand because they are not necessarily public.
Comment
I still don't like the idea of records in training.
Comment
(1) Responding to "At record attempts which take place without an official competition - e.g. in training - I think it would be good to have the duty to inform the IUF in advance. Just because there are no official judges or other officials and the possibility should exist that an official representative is present at the attempt."
Would this duty be there, because without perhaps the right judges and other officials might not be there? But this is covered by our requirements already. Not having those judges and officials means that no record can be granted.
(2) Responding to "I still don't like the idea of records in training."
Consider the hypothetical situation that a track rider achieves good results early in the (training) season, say in April before there are important competitions.He just peaks early, so to speak.
He might then set up a record attempt to try and set a new WR. He will then of course (try to) make sure that all our requirements on time measurement, officials and witnesses are fulfulled. This would be allowed in itself, OK?
Now suppose that he does this at the facility (track stadium or so) that he normally uses for training. That is also not forbidden, OK?
Is this setting a record "in training"? If yes, is there something wrong about it? If not, then what do you mean by "records in training"?
Comment
My personal opinion is that there is indeed a big difference between setting a record in "training" on a separate day where there is no competition (exception: time trial records) and right after a competition. I think we have enough official competitions where we can try and break the record. Furthermore you will be allowed to do an attempt right after the official competition.
My thought is just: Have you ever heard in another sport where records are set at days where there is no competition? Imagine in athletics. Usain Bolt organizes referees and witnesses and everything and sets a new record during that attempt. That seems really strange to me.
An own example: I have a perfect place to train for slalom and often I beat my own record in training because I'm just very used to that underground. Imagine now I call for a record attempt: Measurement, etc. has to be set up, witnesses have to come to my place just to watch me try twice? That is not competition conditions, also if I announce the attempt in advance. Thinking in a stupid way now: If I don't achieve the first time, I try on another day and go on trying every day until I achieve it under these "conditions".
That's why I don't like records in "training". We should not even think about veryfing them in any way. I am mainly talking about track and jump records here because for time trial records the situation is completely different.
Comment
So what you would like to "forbid" is not so much records during training, but records set outside of competitions (or immediately after), for disciplines which can "often" be done in organised competitions. (Whatever "often" means - a marathon is not really "often" done.)
That gives a different perspective. There is something to say for that. What do others think?
Still, there will always be ways to bend the rules. In your example, you could maybe try to organise a competition on your usual training location, where you are used to the riding surface. Maybe, just to join you in thinking stupid: organise a competition every day until you achieve your goal.
Comment
According to me a marathon is a different thing too. If you organise to try and break a marathon record in my opinion it would be a "time trial marathon record attempt" because you are racing alone.
I guess there are some disciplines which cannot be imitated easily outside a competition. Slalom, jumps or other track races of course are much easier.
Haha, I like your stupid way of thinking. But for sure not realistic at all. ;-)
Comment
Time trial marathon is not a recognised record, and let's keep it that way.
If someone would organise a marathon competition in the form of a race, it would be suitable for a (Road Race) record. But in that case it is a competition as opposed to a dedicated attempt.
Comment
that's what I meant...
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Responding to Klaas: "Would this duty be there, because without perhaps the right judges and other officials might not be there? But this is covered by our requirements already. Not having those judges and officials means that no record can be granted."
Not because there are no judges present who could confirm the conformity with the rules, the WRG and our requirements do indeed regulate this. More important to me is rather my last sentence:
Events are always public and anyone who wants to can be there. With dedicated record attempts this possibility would not exist if they were not officially announced beforehand because they are not necessarily public. So you could exclude the public in this way and I don't think that's good for reasons of credibility. I think in general everyone should have the opportunity to be present at a record attempt if he or she wants to.
Responding to Mirjam:
Yes, in in Germany and Switzerland we have a lot of official competitions where you can try and break the record. But in other parts of the world it may look very different. If we forbid the possibility of setting records without an official competition, then this could disadvantage these regions.
I completely agree with you that it is something different to make a dedicated record attempt than to set a record during a competition. But in my opinion this is not a problem for our sport if everyone has this opportunity. And yes, in other sports (e.g. swimming) it is possible to set records at a day where there is no competition!
(FINA SWIMMING RULES 2017 – 2021: SW 12 WORLD RECORDS: SW 12.5 All records must be made in scratch competition or an individual race against time, held in public and announced publicly by advertisement at least three days before the attempt is to be made. In the event of an individual race against time being sanctioned by a Member, as a time trial during a competition, then an advertisement at least three (3) days before the attempt is to be made shall not be necessary.)
Comment
Jan, ok I agree with you that in some parts of the world there may not be as many competitions as in Germany or Switzerland.
But aren't these exactly the parts where there also aren't any officials or people who can be referees/timekeepers? Do they have the required equipment?
According to me we will just face more problems if we "allow" records for training. On one hand we require information, adequate equipment and competent people while on the other hand we allow people to go for a record whenever they want. I'm still in favour of not allowing this in any way.
Comment
Are there any examples of IUF World Records outside of Time Trial records, that have NOT been set at a competition? Or have they even been claimed?
I tend to agree with Mirjam that all records except time trials MUST be set at a (publicly accessible) competitive event.
I actually doubt that there are record-worthy riders who don't have the opportunity to go to a competition. And if such riders do exist, I doubt they have the resources to fulfill our other requirements on officials, distance and time measurement etc.
That would mean that if all records except time trials must be from a competition, we still don't exclude anyone.
Comment
As far as I can remember from the last 3 years there is no such record which was claimed.
Comment
I just created a proposal based on this discussion about getting rid of the requirement to contact IUF prior to a record attempt.
The last few posts in this discussion (before this one) were about records from training. This has been processed in Proposal #10.
Comment
@ Mirjam: you said: "On one hand we require information, adequate equipment and competent people while on the other hand we allow people to go for a record whenever they want."
My intention is by no means to allow people to go for a record whenever they want - and that's exactly why I think records outside official competitions are only possible if they are announced in advance to the IUF. And that far enough in advance! With the exact date, the place and best with the witnesses who will be present at the record attempt. I think all this would prevent anyone from trying to set a record "whenever he wants". And I think that would also prevent someone from trying to break a new record every day, because then he would have to have announced it in advance...
Yes, maybe there are no record-worthy riders who don't have the opportunity to go to a competition and if it is, it might be, that they haven't the resources to fulfill our other requirements on officials, distance and time measurement etc. but that doesn't really have to be our concern. Because if this is not fulfilled, the record cannot be recognized.
But with the proposed rule there is no longer any possibility, even if everything else could be fulfilled.
The fact that there were no record claims of record attempts outside official competitions may also be due to the fact that the WRGs are mainly known in Europe and especially here the riders also report WR attempts to the IUF. Of course, it would be nice if we could change that.