Do unlimited road races WR make sense? (Closed for comments)
Comments about this discussion:
Started
The topic is a bit provocative, but I think it's not bad to reflect on the subject with a bit of distance.
I think it's really great to have fixed-length races where we've been able to set records, each more impressive than the last.
And then during the races, there are other competitors, there are lots of witnesses. It's not like the time trial records which sometimes have not even been attempted by the best racers.
I can tell you that the world records of the 10k and the marathon of Scott, I know them by heart (maybe not to the hundredth of a second).
And I also know Martin's history in these 10k and marathon.
Before thinking about a record, you have to think about winning the race first!
For these races drafting is allowed. We should expect that these records are impossible to beat by a single racer in time trial. But today this is not the case.
There are several explanations: the density of high level runners is too low, the courses and the race conditions are often not conducive to beat a WR, the conditions to homologate the record are not met ...
In my opinion, unicycle road races are similar to running road races and bike road races. The speed is often intermediate.
However, in running, the distances are fixed and in cycling the distances are free. In one, all race formats have their records, in the other, race records do not matter.
One of my interpretations is that the faster you go, the more important the drafting is and the less sense the notion of record in race has. But everyone can make their own interpretation.
I come back to the example of the UNICON 10km in Montreal, you are Martin and you go fast because you know you have the capacity to beat the WR, except that you have Scott who takes advantage of the draft to follow you. At some point you have to choose between slowing down and setting up a strategy to get rid of him (even if it means depriving both of a record) or continuing to move forward, taking the risk of being overtaken on the line.
In a way, I find it very exciting to have so much at stake in a single race and at the same time, you can say that if you play on all the boards you risk losing everything.
Today, I think it still makes sense to have road race records, but I think one day it will make less sense.
Finally, I have to go off topic, to tie in with Ken's posts that I've read. I think it is important that the existence of these road race records should not lead to UNICON or other event organizers only offering 10k, marathon and 100k all flat and measured with great accuracy. If there are 3 road races at a UNICON, in an ideal world, I think I would prefer a short time trial, a mass-start (42k or 100k or a non-flat free distance) race and a climbing race. It would be a shame to vary the format only on the length.
I wanted to share with you what I think, it does not have to lead to a proposal.
Comment
To be honest, I didn't fully understand the point of revising the WRG on this topic, so I didn't contribute to this topic. I think this is more a discussion of what disciplines are (should be) offered - I think this is something for the event organizers and perhaps the rulebook committee, since the disciplines established in the rulebook usually have a big impact on what is offered.
Regarding the world records, I think that in the disciplines that are included in the rulebook (and that are technically suitable for records), records should be recognized - and that was, as far as I remember, also the consensus of a discussion we had at the beginning of this committee.
Comment
Thanks Simon
I was both a runner and (bi)cyclist before I took up unicycling. The great thing about running is that I can compare my half-marathon times from when I was 18yrs old with what they are now, and I can compare races in Iceland with races in New Zealand.
There are also races which are interesting because the terrain is variable (eg mountain running, mountainbiking, road cycling), and fixing the distance makes no sense unless it's a completely flat course.
At my first Unicon (Tokyo), there was only a 10km race, which they called a 'marathon'. Times, technology, riders have all changed, but we still look back at those times. For the standard class, it's even more consistent because equipment isn't a big factor.
I can't see us dropping road racing records. It has tradition- different generations of riders want to compare themselves with each other. It has prestige and gives us a benchmark against other sports (eg running). If you tell a non-unicyclist that you won a unicycle free distance road race, it means nothing to them. If you tell them you won the marathon- they know exactly what you've done.
Drafting and race tactics don't make a record less relevant. Runners also draft- world records would be very hard to beat on an individual basis. There are many bicycle races with a 'race course record', even though it's not fixed distance. I'm not sure I get what you mean by the speed being indeterminate. If you look at the 10km and marathon unicon results, you can see relatively consistent times in the standard class. In the unlimited, there are big improvements when 36" unicycles came on the scene, then another big jump when geared unicycles appeared.
Regarding Unicon- three races would ideal. Any more and it becomes very expensive and difficult to schedule for the host. The 10km is the biggest event at Unicon, so will be impossible to exclude. The marathon- again, too popular to leave out. The 100km is relatively new, and I think easily substituted in favour of the free distance.
The free distance was something I pushed to have included for years, in order to have a 'bicycle race' type event. I don't think it should be limited to a hillclimb. Remember, not every Unicon venue has a big mountain to climb up. I actually thought it would be more interesting to have some flat, followed by a big climb, in order to give riders more to think about (gearing/crank choices, drafting tactics). Either way, we should leave it to the host to make use of what they have available. For Unicon 21, I would love to see a multi-lap 12hr or 24hr road race around the lake, but that may be a bit much! Wouldn't it be great to start racing in the dark with lights?
Comment
Sorry if I wasn't clear in what I wrote.
As the average speed of unlimited races increases, drafting becomes more and more important. It is difficult to quantify the drafting effects accurately, but the higher the speed, the greater the drafting.
For runners, the effect exists but as it is not possible to run very fast for very long, the effect remains limited.
For cycling, I don't know of any race where there is a WR... we mostly hear about records for the number of victories.
When I wrote that the unicycling speed was "intermediate" between running and cycling, I meant that the runners go slower and the cyclists go faster.
For unicycling, there are several factors that make it particularly difficult to outrun a competitor:
- it is more difficult to attack than on a bike (it is harder to make a big acceleration and the courses are often too narrow to move sideways)
- it is difficult to look behind you when you are riding at 30+kph
To take the example of the 10km. For me, it's such a short effort that I try to use all my energy to reach the finish line. If I don't have an earphone (I don't have one but I thought about it) or someone to tell me I'm being followed, I might not even realize it. It's complicated, if not impossible, to set up a race strategy other than to give it your all. Not to mention that the starts are done in waves and that you can fight against a competitor from another wave.
The best solution/proposal I can make would be for the unlimited 10K to become a TT event.
This is a proposal that goes beyond the operation of the WR committee.
The discussion of road race formats is related. And these discussions are related to the measurement of road races. It's hard to deal with all of these topics independently.
Comment
The 10km is already both a road racing record and a time trial record (2011 WR guidelines).
In theory the road racing 10km record should be faster than the time-trial version, once there has been enough attempts at each record.
The drafting effect is one of the things that make racing records interesting. It includes a strategic element. I don't think it is a good idea to get rid of the road racing 10km in favour of the TT. Remember, it is the biggest event at Unicon. It is also one of the oldest- there is a lot of history and allows intergenerational comparisons. The 10km TT record- has anyone even attempted it? Records must be relevant to all unicyclists, not just those interested in world records.
Comment
I am not suggesting that one WR be replaced by another. And I know that the 10k TT WR exists and is still blank.
I have outlined the arguments that I believe make a race strategy almost impossible on unlimited 10k races (and unfortunately also on the marathon):
- the courses are often too narrow
- wave starts (before the start of the UNICON marathon, I knew that my main competitor was not in the same wave, his 2nd place was far from a surprise)
You have to wait 30 minutes after crossing the finish line to start believing that you have won the race. Today is already a TT race.
In unlimited, we are far from having reached the level for race records to be stronger than timed records of the same distance.
It's possible to do 10k under 17 minutes, but it's not by looking back.
Anyway, I think it would be great to have a new competition format and it wouldn't impact most participants since it would only be for the unlimited.
Comment
I am not a road racer and especially not an unlimited rider - although I have participated in the 10 km standard race at every Unicon I have been to, I would not call myself experienced in road racing and I don't think I can really contribute anything to the discussion. But for me it still looks like we are discussing actually rather a question for the Rulebook Committee than a question for the World Record Committee!? Maybe I did not get it, so what exactly is the point that we as a WR Committee are actually discussing?
Maybe the TT format is more suitable for the Unimited class at a competition - I can't say that - but if you think so, then this topic should be definitely addressed in the Rulebook Committee and it should be included in the rulebook as a competition discipline! And then for sure we should consider WR in this discipline (but as Ken already saied for 10k we already do that). But as long as there is an interest in doing the 10k or the marathon as a normal road race - which should also be considered in the rulebook if this is not the case - world records should also be kept here.
Comment
You are right.
I am not on the rulebook committee and I had sent an email to Maksym after the UNICON to suggest this format for the 10K. I'm going to ask him again.
Comment
Two updates:
1. Maksym is not IUF President anymore. Mark Fabian from Hungary has taken over that role
2. IUF Rulebook review 2022/2023 is starting up now. I believe, Simon, that you have applied to be a member of the Road Race subcommittee. AFAIK, the Rulebook review process is managed by Connie Cotter.
Comment
I didn't realize that Maksym is no longer IUF president, when did Mark Fabian take over? Was there an official announcement from the IUF? But that is good to know, thank you for the information.
Is there anything left to clarify in this discussion in terms of the WR Guidelines update or what to take to the Rulebook Committee? As I understood it, it should be discussed in the Rulebook Committee whether the TT format should be included in the Rulebook as a competition discipline, right?
Comment
I take back that Mark Fabian is IUF President. Maksym wrote to me a few weeks ago that Mark is new IUF director. I interpreted that as new IUF president. Most likely a misinterpretation on my side - sorry!
Will respond to your other remark/question later.
Comment
Concerning the TT format for road races, it is already foreseen by the rulebook (3D10/3D10.1), but there is no example to set up a race.
In any case, I will propose modifications for the unlimited 10k, which seems to me to be the most appropriate distance to test this format (I won't go into details here). This way the TT format would become a competitive discipline.
Comment
I think on this topic we agree that it is something for the Rulebook Committee and not something that needs to be decided in the World Record Committee - I would therefore close the thread unless there are any objections.